{#The Great Way, The Great Merchant --- Buddhism and Corporate Culture}
# The Great Way, The Great Merchant --- Buddhism and Corporate Culture

--- A sub-forum dialogue at the Fourth World Buddhist Forum, 2015

Venerable Jiqun

[I. What Is Success? [2](#一什么是成功)](#一什么是成功)

[II. Morality and Profit [9](#二道德与利益)](#二道德与利益)

[III. The Entrepreneur's View of Charity [13](#三企业家的慈善观)](#三企业家的慈善观)

[IV. Audience Interaction: Finding Solutions [21](#四观众互动解决问题)](#四观众互动解决问题)

Moderator: Mr. Yang Jinlin

Panelists: Venerable Jiqun, Mr. Cao Dewang, Mr. Yang Zhao, Mr. Li Jinyou, and others

We live in an era dominated by commerce. Material civilization is highly developed, and wealth has become the universal yardstick for success. Yet many who possess wealth are far from happy, and many whose enterprises are vast have no idea what meaning their work holds. Besides this, the decline of social morality, the deterioration of the environment, and the growing coldness in human relationships are all deeply alarming. Where exactly does the problem lie? I believe the crux of the matter is that society's criteria for judging success have gone wrong.

Fortunately, many people of insight have already recognized this issue and, guided by the wisdom of the Buddhadharma, are running their enterprises in ways that have accumulated rich experience for how business can develop healthily in today's society. That is why inheriting the finest traditions of the East and rebuilding corporate culture is a matter of urgent priority. This "Buddhism and Corporate Culture Forum" will, from the perspective of the Buddhadharma, explore topics such as happiness, success, profit, and charity together with entrepreneurs, in the hope of redefining the standards of success and discovering a path to true happiness.

{#一什么是成功}
## I. What Is Success?

Yang Jinlin: The New Media Forum "The Great Way, The Great Merchant" of the Fourth World Buddhist Forum is under my moderation. This is a service opportunity the forum has offered me, and also a remarkable and auspicious moment to share. Today's theme is highly compelling, and I am sure it will resonate with many. First, let me welcome our panelists to the stage --- Venerable Jiqun, Mr. Cao Dewang, Mr. Yang Zhao, and Mr. Li Jinyou.

Regardless of our wealth or our learning, we are all gathered here for a common purpose: to explore the relationship between Buddhism and running a business. We have four starting points: first, what is success? Second, the relationship between wealth and profit. Third, what kind of view on charity should a successful entrepreneur hold? And fourth, what is the happiness we are really seeking?

The four speakers invited today include an eminent monk and respected teacher, and successful entrepreneurs who are also practicing lay Buddhists. They will each share their own perspectives on today's topic.

Over the past thirty-plus years of reform and opening up, China has become the world's second-largest economy and now holds the largest foreign exchange reserves on the planet. At the same time, wealth has become the standard by which society judges whether a person is successful or not.

Are these familiar and well-worn standards true? Are they reasonable? We can all see the price we have paid for development: environmental degradation, moral decline, and a loss of trust between people. What message is this forum, with all its earnest effort, trying to convey to the world? Or to put it another way, can the Buddhadharma offer this troubled world a new standard of judgment? Let me invite Venerable Jiqun to share his teaching with us.

Venerable Jiqun: It is a truly auspicious occasion to explore some of the important issues in our society's development together with these great lay practitioners, who are themselves entrepreneurs. Let us begin with the question of what success is.

Why do we need to discuss this topic? Because how we view success and how we pursue it serves as a weathervane for the direction of social development. Our definition of "success" is, in essence, a question of values. Whatever we feel is valuable in life --- obtaining it means success, and the reverse is equally true.

In this era of unprecedented material abundance, when people speak of success, they tend to measure it by the size of one's wealth. Widely known rankings like the Forbes list have made this standard concrete and visible. Across all kinds of media, we see frequent roll calls --- the wealthiest person in the world, in China, in a province, a city, even a county or a village --- continually updated and replaced, turning into a nationwide drama that people eagerly follow and never tire of discussing.

When the entire society treats the accumulation of money as the hallmark of success, then naturally "maximizing profit" becomes the highest priority. Such values only intensify people's greed, even to the point where they can see nothing else and will stop at nothing to make a profit. The resulting problems --- moral decline, ecological devastation, violations of the law --- are, I believe, already plain for all to see. Even more alarming is that trust itself is facing an unprecedented crisis --- we no longer know what to believe, nor do we dare to believe anything at all.

From this we can see that a misguided conception of success will become a great hidden danger for society's development. Therefore, re-examining the value of success and redefining what success really means has become an urgent priority, and is also the key to China's healthy future development. This concerns not only each individual's own well-being, but also the stability and harmony of society as a whole.

For thousands of years, the values of the Chinese people have been shaped primarily by traditional Chinese culture. Take, for example, the "Three Imperishables" spoken of in Confucianism, which was once the mainstream value system that influenced countless people. "The highest is to establish virtue" --- making the cultivation of moral character and sage-like qualities the supreme goal. "Next is to establish merit" --- achieving great deeds and bringing benefit to the wider world. "Next is to establish teachings" --- influencing society and educating the people through one's writings. In parallel with this, there is also the ideal of "cultivating oneself, regulating one's family, governing the state, and bringing peace to all under heaven." It begins with perfecting one's own moral character, then managing family relationships well, then governing the state to benefit society and bring peace and well-being to the world.

It was under the influence of precisely these values that the ancients took as their life's aim "to establish the heart for heaven and earth, to establish a destiny for the people, to carry forward the lost learning of past sages, and to bring peace to all ages to come." This is not so much a lofty spiritual aspiration as it is their interpretation of success and their way of living it out.

From the Buddhist perspective, the establishment of values is grounded in an understanding of life itself. Where does the value of life truly lie? It lies in the attainment of wisdom and the attainment of compassion. The attainment of wisdom comes through studying the scriptures and teachings, awakening the inner enlightenment inherent in our lives, thereby cutting through confusion and affliction to become an awakened being --- this emphasizes benefiting oneself. The attainment of compassion comes through extending oneself to others, dedicating this profound heart to every realm of existence, taking all beings rather than the self as the center --- this emphasizes benefiting others. From this we can see that the success Buddhism affirms is not only personal accomplishment but, even more, the benefit of all beings. One could even say that benefiting oneself is for the sake of benefiting others, and awakening oneself is ultimately for the sake of awakening others. Hence the saying, "For the benefit of all beings, I vow to attain Buddhahood."

Such a definition of success cannot be separated from an understanding of the true nature of life. Only on the basis of such understanding can we view success from a higher vantage point, rather than being confined to immediate gains and losses.

Yang Jinlin: Thank you, Venerable Jiqun, for your teaching. The other three panelists are all prominent entrepreneurs and also devout Dharma-protecting lay Buddhists. They are neither children of officials nor children of the wealthy --- they all started from nothing, relying on their own hard work to climb step by step to their respective pinnacles of success, and they continue to create value for society to this day. Mr. Yang Zhao, please share with us your thoughts on success.

Yang Zhao: As an entrepreneur, I see success as having a first half and a second half. The first half is success in career; the second half is success in life. The standard for career success is simply to have fame, fortune, and social standing. So what then is the standard for a successful life? It is good health, a happy family, and whether you live with joy in your heart.

There is a misconception in our society today --- that career success equals life success. But many people find that while someone may appear to be successful, that person is not really a role model for them. Why is that? Because although they may have money and fame, their family is not happy and they do not live with joy. Clearly, career does not equal life, nor does career success equal life success. Therefore, beyond pursuing career success, we need to pursue life success in the second half.

Yang Jinlin: First half, second half --- it sounds a bit like playing football. Mr. Cao, do you agree with this way of playing?

Cao Dewang: I believe what they have said is all correct, but discussing success is a big topic. My view is: the same rice feeds a hundred kinds of people. With every trade and profession under heaven, who gets to judge who is successful? I think we should evaluate the success of ordinary living beings. What does it mean for ordinary beings to be successful? To abide by the law, to have a strong and healthy body, to have a harmonious family, and to live in freedom --- that is success.

Just now Venerable Jiqun spoke of the impatience and restlessness in Chinese society and mentioned the Forbes list --- he certainly was not singling me out. I am also a seasoned actor on the Forbes stage; they keep putting me on that list. I once discussed this with them, asking why they pay so much attention to these individuals in China. They said that with China's reform and opening up and its high GDP growth year after year, the whole Western world has taken notice. First, they want to know how it is being done, and whether it is real or fake. Second, they want to know if there is an opportunity for them to take part. Third, they want to know who to look up if they do get that opportunity. So the list actually serves as a source of information --- the list itself is hollow.

Why do I say that? Because it deals with one link in the chain of the virtual economy. What we call the virtual economy is this: you take money to invest, whether in real assets or in stocks and futures. Once your money goes into an investment, it becomes insubstantial. A sudden change, some unforeseen event, and your assets could vanish overnight. If you want to get things done, you keep your money sitting solidly in the bank, untouched --- that is real. Move it, and it turns insubstantial. Those on the front lines of investment are usually in this insubstantial state. Quite a few who once made the rich list ended up in a sorry state in the end. So we should not say they were merely restless; rather, our own understanding in this area is not deep enough, and the way we assess these people needs improvement.

The other day someone was saying that so-and-so had become a billionaire, but in fact his company's debts were several times his personal assets. So the Forbes list itself is insubstantial --- it's playing games. It is also something created to serve the needs of the country's reform and opening-up narrative. By no means should we take it too seriously.

Yang Jinlin: Mr. Cao has given us a different angle. Mr. Li Jinyou from Malaysia has been a good friend of mine for many years. Please share your understanding of success.

Li Jinyou: To me, success is always a process --- it is very hard to pin down a definition. I quite agree with Mr. Yang's first-half and second-half analogy. Succeeding in a specific task is easy; pursuing success in life, however, is profound learning. I feel that if a person wants to be successful, they need to possess several qualities. First, self-confidence. Second, diligence. Third, a devoted heart and a willingness to learn with humility. I consider myself very fortunate --- I began studying Buddhism at forty. The great wisdom of our original teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha, is something we can never finish learning.

Coming here today, I have the opportunity to draw close to a great spiritual friend like Venerable Jiqun, and to be with lay practitioners like Mr. Yang and Mr. Cao --- they are all well worth learning from. I feel that humble learning is a process, but it must involve the process of "seeing results over time." This point is especially important for young people today.

Yang Jinlin: These speakers make me feel that I am truly not a successful person at all. At sixty, I am still starting a business --- I have had no first half and no second half. Only those who have finished playing the first half can leisurely speak of life, health, and happiness. Without a certain material foundation, empty talk or extravagant talk about success is meaningless.

But Venerable Jiqun has also given us a hint. Under the clash between Western material standards and Eastern spiritual standards, ordinary beings sometimes suffer a great deal of affliction --- and I am one of the most afflicted. So I am not here today to be a moderator; I have come to absorb some wisdom.

When we speak of success, to be honest, today it really is wealth that determines your standing in the world. Mr. Cao has exposed it for everyone: don't believe in those wealth rankings --- they are for propaganda purposes. Yet so many people are still jumping right in. Chasing hollow fame and hollow profit --- that is a malady of our society today. Because of this hollowness, compounded by a loss of faith, we see so much chaos unfolding.

Why do we hold Buddhist forums like this? Why must monastics speak with such earnest effort? So then, is the view that profit is supreme --- whether in the first half or the second half --- ultimately right or wrong? My fellow Yang --- what is your take?

Yang Zhao: As I just mentioned, wealth can be divided into two kinds: the first is material wealth, and the second is spiritual wealth. We now have a misunderstanding, thinking that possessing material wealth means possessing everything. I have met many major entrepreneurs in Hong Kong, but money cannot buy everything. Good health cannot be bought with money; a happy family cannot be bought with money; whether you live with joy in your heart cannot be bought with money either.

Therefore, a successful life requires spiritual wealth. We must not get this wrong; we need to target the right remedy. It is only when we possess both material wealth --- such as money, reputation, and social standing --- and spiritual wealth that life can be truly successful. With only fame, fortune, and social status, you can claim career success, but not life success. So career success is measured by three criteria: wealth, reputation, and status. Life success requires three more: good health, a happy family, and living with joy in your heart.

Yang Jinlin: To be honest, not many among us here today can meet all six of these criteria. Otherwise, why would our forum have people standing in the aisles? Clearly, everyone has come seeking a prescription. All beings are equal, but in the process of awakening to life, they are not necessarily equal. This equality is relative. Venerable Jiqun, as a monastic --- Mr. Yang has set all these criteria --- do you find them hard to live up to?

Venerable Jiqun: I think what lay practitioner Yang has described is indeed the reality --- many entrepreneurs pursue things on these two levels. But I feel that if we separate career success from the success of being a good person, problems can easily arise.

If we lose sight of the goal of being a good person and pursue career success in isolation, then in the course of doing business, we may treat the enterprise as everything. To build the business, our health collapses, our family becomes discordant, and even our state of mind is damaged. Such phenomena are everywhere. So I believe that the pursuit of career success should be founded upon the art of being a good person.

This is not to say that everyone who pursues a career will encounter these problems. If a person already possesses moral boundaries and principles for conducting themselves, even without consciously seeking to succeed as a person, they will bring that inherent character to their career and make the right choices --- knowing what to do and what not to do. Conversely, if they lack such qualities, when they pursue business success one-sidedly, they are likely to act recklessly and bring about all kinds of problems.

Yang Jinlin: In the first half, you earn money like mad; only when you've earned enough do you realize --- ah, I haven't succeeded as a person --- and start giving back to society. Is this a mindset of atonement, or a mindset of correction? Mr. Cao, please continue to enlighten us.

Cao Dewang: Speaking of this, I can say with some pride that entrepreneurs can learn from me. My approach to success is to simplify complex problems. I classify the *Four Books and Five Classics*, the *Tripitaka*, and all such texts as education --- they are the cause, not the result. There are thousands of ways of education, and I boil them down to three principles: faith, vow, and practice.

This is how I have been since I started my business, right up to today. I not only enjoy a high reputation in China, but my reputation in America and Europe is even higher than in China --- they respect me deeply. What is the reason? When I do business with them, I have learned to respect them. I firmly believe in the dignity of the law. I believe in the power of public opinion. I believe that my success requires the support of many customers, and that it requires my employees to shed blood and sweat for me, working with absolute loyalty. I firmly believe that the world is full of truth, goodness, and beauty. At the same time, I also believe in taking every step with care, knowing that hidden arrows may come my way.

Through my own diligent learning, I have avoided all kinds of risks. Everyone nowadays finds business difficult, but our growth this year is still much faster than last year's. What is the lesson from this? Simplify complex problems. And first of all, you must have faith.

Second, my heart is very broad and open. I made a vow to produce a sheet of glass for the Chinese people --- glass that can represent the nation's standard, engage with the world on the international stage, and showcase the wisdom of the Chinese people and the success of reform and opening up. Today I produce automotive glass for the global market, and to put it modestly, we are the second-largest enterprise. BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Volkswagen, General Motors, and Honda are all my customers.

If you truly want to succeed, you have to start from the very beginning. Every single event that happens in every day and every minute of your life is a brick in the edifice of your life. When you lay each brick, you must think carefully: can this brick be laid here? Because if it is laid crooked, you won't be able to pull it out later. You might say, I only plan to build this high, so it's fine. But if you lay the bricks well, and later you are able to build a hundred stories, the building will not collapse because some brick was placed wrong.

If there is a disgraceful chapter in your life, then when you reach a certain height and the pressure grows, that spot won't be able to bear the weight. As the saying goes, "It is lonely at the top." People might say, so-and-so once committed such-and-such a misdeed, once cheated in this or that way. Then it's all over --- you have to tumble back down. In my view, making money and such is easy. But to go through life without giving anyone grounds to point a finger at you --- that is truly difficult. Just as Chairman Mao Zedong said, it is easy for a person to do one good deed; what is hard is to do good deeds for a lifetime.

On this point, I hope entrepreneurs will encourage themselves. And this, too, is connected to faith --- you must clarify your own faith. If you succeed, trust that the Buddha has given you this blessing. If you do not succeed, trust in your destiny --- that this is the path fate has destined you to take. And believe in future lives: after I finish this life, I will come back in the next.

Yang Jinlin: Magnanimous. Only someone who has lived richly can arrive at such insight. Malaysia has successfully hosted the APEC summit and also the 10+3 meetings --- and Mr. Li Jinyou and his group were the ones who actually organized them. For an entrepreneur to host such events on behalf of his country must surely count as a form of success. What is your take on Mr. Cao's remarks? My impression from Mr. Cao is that sincerity and goodness bring their own reward. Even if it hasn't fully arrived in this lifetime, never mind --- that's fate; I still have another life ahead. A very thorough kind of life insight. What do you think?

Li Jinyou: When Mr. Cao said that entrepreneurs can learn from him, he was not being arrogant --- he simply feels that he has genuine positive energy to offer young people. And this is also what I mentioned earlier: success requires self-confidence.

We are here today discussing the topic of "success," and speaking honestly, when you run a business, you cannot avoid talking about making money. My feeling is that a businessperson absolutely must create profit. If you cannot create profit, then you cannot really be called a businessperson. But what I think is even more important is "to see profit and remember righteousness" --- what is meant by "the noble person loves wealth but obtains it by the proper way." There is nothing wrong with obtaining profit. It is like Mr. Cao turning sand into glass and then making automobile windshields --- that is called "the noble person benefits things through righteousness." The *Book of Changes* says, "Profit is the harmony of righteousness." I feel that so long as you bring a spirit of sharing into the process of creating your enterprise, you can share not only your technical achievements but also, once wealth is created, share that wealth with others. This also accords with the code of conduct for those who study Buddhism. What Mr. Cao has described is, I believe, something he has genuinely practiced in his life.

The moderator mentioned just now that I have organized conferences in Malaysia. I have not only organized major conferences but have also supported many social and cultural activities. I am very fond of the four characters *yuan heng li zhen* --- when I recite "yuan heng li zhen," it is for me like reciting "Amitabha." *Yuan* is the chief of all virtues --- whatever we do, we must begin with a wholesome and good intention. *Heng* is wisdom --- our discussion here today is itself *heng*. Thus, "benefiting things is sufficient to harmonize with righteousness." I could see all of these qualities in what Mr. Cao just shared.

Yang Jinlin: Our forum and dialogue are entering a richer phase. This topic was sparked by Mr. Yang Zhao, who analyzed success in terms of a first half and a second half and even provided quantified criteria --- what we might call the Yang Standard. But as we can see, the three speakers hold differing views and perspectives on this topic. I think it is best that we seek common ground while reserving differences.

Mr. Yang Zhao, I know you still have many insights to share with everyone. Your view on happiness just now left me rather dejected, to the point of doubting whether I still have any meaningful reason to stay alive and keep striving. Before you speak, I would like to invite Venerable Benru, from the founding temple of the Vinaya school at Jingye Monastery on Mount Zhongnan, to offer an on-the-spot response. This is a forum that benefits everyone, so everyone should take part.

Venerable Benru: Thank you, everyone, and thank you, Mr. Yang Jinlin, for giving me the chance to speak. As I receive wisdom from all of you, I am also reflecting: what is the greatest success for someone who has renounced the household life? My thought is this: to help Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva attain Buddhahood as soon as possible! My teacher, the late Elder Miaozhan, once told me: in life, we must take hold of three kinds of health. First, health of body. Second, health of mind. Third, health of wisdom. If you possess these, your life will be absolutely brilliant, and you will be able to help Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva become a Buddha, to help all beings become Buddhas. This is the Great Way and the Great Merchant for every one of us who studies the Buddha's path.

{#二道德与利益}
## II. Morality and Profit

Yang Jinlin: Mr. Yang Zhao, I asked Venerable Benru to give you a lead-in --- I think you should continue to explore this further.

Yang Zhao: We were just speaking about the issue of morality. From the perspective of morality, how should we view wealth? Different people have different views. The Confucian view is, "Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire." In other words, put yourself in others' shoes and consider things from their standpoint --- this is also called empathy. When everyone uses the same principle and shares a common standpoint to view issues, we arrive at the consensus of "do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire."

Buddhists also have moral standards. As a Buddhist, I observe the Five Precepts and practice the Ten Wholesome Deeds, I cultivate the six pāramitās, and I learn the four immeasurable minds of kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity. These are my standards for being a person and for doing things.

Yang Jinlin: Two months ago, I went to the North Pole. On the same ship, Professor Li Yinhe discussed with me her philosophy of life: first, to benefit others; second, to benefit oneself; third, to benefit oneself slightly in the course of benefiting others, and to benefit others slightly in the course of benefiting oneself. These are three ways of living. After hearing this, I felt I had lived sixty years in vain. Am I benefiting others, benefiting myself, or somewhere in between? I can't figure out what I've been living for.

When we come to the question of profit --- if businesspeople and entrepreneurs do not seek profit, there will be no way to liberate all beings. For example, you cannot support the ten or twenty thousand workers at Fuyao Glass unless you can always meet the payroll. The crux is whether your footing is in benefiting others or benefiting oneself. Is it really that absolute, Mr. Cao?

Cao Dewang: In my view, when it comes to wealth, no amount of money is worth envying or chasing after as a must-have, but you absolutely cannot do without it either. I used to be very poor. When I couldn't even afford a pack of cigarettes, the sight of a single cent would get me excited. But now that I have money, I think it is not that useful --- having enough to get by is sufficient, because it changes. Governments everywhere are now promoting loose monetary policy. A moment of carelessness, and the money in your drawer starts devaluing nonstop. Or take stock trading --- you might lose, or you might strike it rich. These are very real issues. There is only one thing that cannot change: the enhancement of your overall personal quality. That is the greatest wealth.

As the Confucians say, "Do not pray for piles of gold and jade, but rather that your children and grandchildren may each be worthy." What you should leave to your children is wisdom and capability. So long as you have competence, reputation, trustworthiness, and a healthy body, that is the greatest wealth. Profit takes countless forms. Today, having me invited to sit here in the center with you all seated below --- that also brings me great profit, because everyone would like to sit in this spot. The ancients spoke of "attending to both righteousness and profit." When you hold a position, fulfill its duties; when you hold a position, live up to the trust it carries.

I mentioned earlier that in China, no distinction is made between businesspeople and entrepreneurs. It is like when Westerners say that China has no philosophy, but Chinese people reply, "No, we do have philosophy." Take the verse, "By the riverbank, who first saw the moon? And the river moon, what year first shone on humankind?" Nan Huaijin says this is philosophy --- how can you say there is no philosophy?

So why do Westerners say that China has no entrepreneurs? How do they define the term? It is because in the course of Western industrialization, the title of entrepreneur was accorded great honor. It was held that an entrepreneur must first have courage, must dare to shoulder responsibility, to challenge limits, to challenge the future, to challenge the world, to challenge all under heaven. When you have done so, that is your boldness and vision. If the Volkswagen emissions fraud is confirmed, they will have to recall over thirteen million vehicles. People say it will cost eighteen billion US dollars --- it is almost unimaginable, isn't it? So, first and foremost, an entrepreneur must have the courage to take responsibility for things.

Small traders and peddlers earn a bit of money for the purpose of feeding their families, but a true entrepreneur must possess a spirit of taking responsibility. Their aspirations are also different from those of an ordinary businessperson. Entrepreneurs compete under uniform standards --- quality standards, accounting standards, standards of conduct, and so on. Through their own hard work, they continuously improve their production equipment, raise product quality and work efficiency, and at the same time reduce costs.

Who is worried about these things? The people are worried, society is worried, the nation is worried. Therefore, the aspiration of an entrepreneur should be this --- that the nation becomes stronger because you exist, that society advances because you exist, and that the people become prosperous because you exist.

At the same time, because of your efforts, everyone strives toward these standards --- that is the difference between an entrepreneur and a mere businessperson. When we learned from the West, we first learned from the Soviet Union and later from the United States. But what America taught us was its own ongoing experiment --- "deindustrialization" and the development of the virtual economy. So what we ended up studying was all about the virtual economy. The stock market has now opened a whole slew of third boards, fourth boards, and startup boards. I ask them: do you want to run a good enterprise? Are you doing it to make products or to sell stock? What is your real purpose? Therein lies the problem. You may say these people are unscrupulous, but we should not criticize them --- whatever exists has its reasons. After opening up, we learned from abroad, and this is what we were taught. What can you do?

Yang Jinlin: The great merchants have spoken at length --- now the Great Way should also say a few words. Buddhism and corporate culture have gradually begun to find a path, or at least a path of reflection. Whether it is about our view of wealth or about benefiting ourselves versus benefiting others, let us invite Venerable Jiqun to offer his teaching.

Venerable Jiqun: When we speak of wealth, morality, and the debate between righteousness and profit, what do we need to reflect on? Why does our whole society now lack moral awareness? We cannot simply point fingers at these phenomena; we also need to inquire into their root causes.

The emergence of such phenomena in society is connected, to some degree, with our traditions and our current educational system. For instance, in the Confucian "righteousness-profit debate," righteousness and profit have been placed somewhat in opposition. It is held that if a person speaks of morality, they should not speak of profit. Conversely, if they speak of profit, it seems to show that they do not value morality.

Furthermore, traditional Chinese morality was built on the foundation of the patriarchal clan system. That is to say, morality was primarily a requirement of the family, a requirement of society, with personal needs placed behind. So people often feel that morality is a social affair, not really connected to oneself. Once the binding force of the family and society weakens, morality fades away accordingly. At one point, we even heard the brazen taunt, "How much is morality a pound?" The subtext behind this is: if you cannot constrain me, why should I abide by the rules and follow your standards?

Under the influence of materialist education, moreover, the foundation for establishing morality has become even more fragile. There is a saying: "A thoroughgoing materialist fears nothing." What is it that they do not fear? They do not fear karmic cause and effect. If a person only cares about immediate, visible gains and losses, without any longer-range perspective, then abiding by morality becomes utterly hollow. So we need to find the root cause of moral decay. Only then can we propose effective solutions.

In my view, abiding by morality cannot be separated from wisdom. Without wisdom, moral requirements are purely mechanical --- nothing more than telling you what to do and what not to do. And this raises the question: why should I do this? Very often, practicing morality looks like accepting a loss --- it requires giving, forbearance, and yielding. If it means losing out, why do it? In the past, people might have felt compelled by rites, social expectations, or public opinion. But in an age that celebrates individual liberation, when people may not care at all about rites or public opinion, why should they still uphold morality?

This brings us to the need to recognize the value of morality for life itself. The Buddha, through his enlightenment, told us that life is an endless accumulation. Our present state of existence comes from our past actions, speech, and thoughts --- known as the three karmas of body, speech, and mind. It is these very things that constitute the diverse forms our lives take. Wholesome karma builds a wholesome life accumulation, shaping a healthy state of mind, character, and quality of life. Conversely, unwholesome karma builds a detrimental life accumulation, leading life toward degeneration.

It is clear, then, that in the course of practicing morality, we ourselves are the primary beneficiaries; only secondarily do we enable others to benefit. Conversely, we ourselves also become the victims of immoral conduct, and in turn cause harm to others. If everyone could embrace this understanding, they would abide by morality of their own accord. Because doing so is not for anyone else --- it is to take responsibility for one's own life, for one's own future. There is not a single person who does not wish for a bright future, for a wholesome state of mind, for a noble character.

If we can recognize the value of morality from such a vantage point, then morality will surely become a conscious practice that everyone is willing to undertake, just as we are willing to work hard for a better quality of life.

From a societal perspective, abiding by morality not only benefits the individual but also benefits others --- or at the very least, does not harm others. In this sense, the law is morality at its most basic level. When we all abide by the law, public safety is assured. Consider, too, the precepts of Buddhism. Even the most fundamental Five Precepts --- not killing, not stealing, not engaging in sexual misconduct, not lying, and not taking intoxicants --- as long as we observe these, we restrain ourselves while at the same time giving others a sense of safety. Just imagine: a society without harm, without theft, without betrayal, without deception --- how deeply desirable that would be.

Beyond this, Buddhism also has an even loftier morality, which is the morality of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas --- selfless benefiting of others, great kindness and great compassion. Because they regard all beings as more important than themselves, they are ready at any moment to help beings leave suffering behind and attain happiness. When such a morality is put into practice, how many people can be brought peace and hope.

The great lay practitioners seated here today are themselves practitioners of this very kind. Guided by the conviction of the Buddhadharma, they run their businesses and engage with the world --- and this is also a key reason why they have been able to succeed. So let us not drive a hard wedge between morality and profit.

{#三企业家的慈善观}
## III. The Entrepreneur's View of Charity

Yang Jinlin: Morality is not abstract; it is concrete and real. The three entrepreneurs seated here, each at a different stage of life, especially at the present stage, are all striving to put it into practice: giving wealth, giving the Dharma, giving fearlessness. Mr. Yang, you must have many thoughts on benefiting others and benefiting yourself to share with us, as well as your own hands-on experience in charity.

Yang Zhao: We were talking just now about how to view wealth, or one could say, the purpose of life. How should we be as people? How should we do things? Where is the road? The road is beneath your feet.

First, we need to feed ourselves. How do we do that? You must abide by the law --- you cannot simply take by force. That's the minimum standard. Second, you need a standard of conscience, which is a higher level. You have to ask yourself: in your heart, do you have anything to be ashamed of? Toward your customers, toward your family, toward society, toward the nation, toward humanity --- is there any shame?

When I go to sleep at night and realize that today I can face my conscience without regret, I sleep very well. Conversely, if I find one or two things I did poorly --- perhaps because I was too serious and too impatient, or had a bad temper today --- what do I do? I must repent and confess: Yang Zhao, tomorrow you must keep working at it.

"Each day I examine myself on three counts." A person must reflect and self-examine. Through reflection, self-examination, and review, you can keep making progress.

Yang Jinlin: Brother Jinyou, please share as well.

Li Jinyou: I am sixty years old this year --- I count as an old man now. When I was forty, China had only just begun its reform and opening up. Much of what nourished me came from Taiwan. Taiwan once awarded me the "Overseas Youth Entrepreneurship Award" --- that was the first entrepreneurship award I ever received. After receiving it, many people called me an entrepreneur. In truth, the title "entrepreneur" troubled me for many years. Because I feel that the word *jia* --- meaning "master" or "expert" --- is a very serious designation. Someone who can paint a little does not necessarily become a painter; someone who can play the piano does not necessarily become a pianist.

That is why, back then, I set up a Youth Entrepreneurship Association in Malaysia, thinking it could help society, help young people. My intention in founding this association was simple: when a person starts a business, they can at least create jobs. Especially when someone like Mr. Cao builds such a major enterprise, they can create a great many jobs.

A career must develop gradually --- it is not that you register a company today and strike it rich tomorrow. Yet nowadays, many people are desperate for quick success, and this is a widespread social problem. So I feel that young people today should first honestly and earnestly become a good *businessperson*.

Speaking of these three characters --- *sheng-yi-ren*, "businessperson" --- I have looked into the character *sheng* (生). The *Great Learning* says, "There is a great way to generate wealth: let the producers be many and the consumers few, let those who work be diligent and those who spend be frugal --- then wealth will always be sufficient." Laozi's *Dao De Jing* also says, "Generate without possessing, act without depending, achieve without claiming credit. It is because one does not claim credit that the achievement endures." So as we do business, we must have productive and creative power.

And as for *yi* (意), "intention" --- this is even more weighty. In running a business, our intention must be upright, and we can draw abundant nourishment from the three traditions of Confucianism, Buddhism, and Daoism. The *Diamond Sutra* often asks, "What is your intention?" What is your intention? For instance, if you manufacture baby products, things that babies eat and drink, how can you possibly produce something with a bad intention? If you start a business to make money today, how can you, having earned that money, end up harming society? Take the many environmental problems we face today --- they come from intentions gone wrong.

Third is the character *ren* (人), "person" --- this is the most important of all. The two strokes that make up the character *ren* (人) --- one falling left, one falling right --- stand for truth and integrity. We must do what it is fitting for a person to do. How to be a person? We touched on this earlier --- it is a profound subject of learning. One must practice filial piety, brotherly respect, loyalty, and trustworthiness. Think about it: if you are not filial to your parents at home, not loving toward your siblings, always bickering and quarreling, then no matter how much your career prospers on the outside, your life will still run into trouble. Why does Confucianism place such importance on filial piety, brotherly respect, loyalty, and trustworthiness? Because these bear directly on how we conduct ourselves as human beings.

Earlier, Mr. Cao said that an "entrepreneur" is not the same as a businessperson, and I deeply share this sentiment. I feel that the three characters *sheng-yi-ren* actually encompass this distinction too. When others call you an "entrepreneur," you should reflect: am I truly worthy of that *jia*?

I was born in Malaysia and started with one hundred dollars. But I am a little greedier, I suppose --- I want my family, especially my children, to become people who are both wealthy and noble. Why pursue wealth and nobility? The Confucians say, "Riches and honors acquired by unrighteous means are to me as passing clouds." Clearly, Confucius did not tell you not to be wealthy and noble --- he merely warned you not to take ill-gotten gains.

When we study Buddhism, or study Confucianism and Daoism, if we end up wretchedly poor and barely scraping by, how can we even practice? In fact, studying Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism all help us become wealthy and noble people. If you study little, your wealth will be modest; if you study at a middling level, your wealth will be greater; if you study at a profound level, your wealth will be the greatest of all.

So I believe we should encourage young people today to become wealthy and noble persons. But this requires three conditions: be wealthy and fond of learning, be wealthy and fond of propriety, and be wealthy and fond of goodness. As for nobility, we spoke just now of "not imposing on others what you yourself do not desire," and also of "wishing to establish others when you wish to establish yourself." Everyone encounters benefactors --- *guiren*, "noble people" --- in life. Sometimes our parents are our benefactors; sometimes our teachers are our benefactors, giving us guidance and a helping hand. Once you are successful, you should also become a benefactor to others --- what is called "nobling yourself and nobling others."

To be a "businessperson" and a "wealthy and noble person," you must also have *de* (德), "virtue." The character *de* is connected to *de* (得), "to obtain" --- they share the same sound. Only when you have the Way can you obtain. If you want abundant wealth, many customers, and so many other things, all of them must be built on the foundation of virtue. It is like building a house --- you must first lay a solid foundation. When you have practiced virtue well, then you can "obtain." But then the question arises: what is the Way?

Yang Jinlin: Thank you, Brother Jinyou, for sharing. Today's topics are truly so meaningful. Here we are at a Buddhist forum, devoting dedicated time to discussing businesspeople and wealthy and noble persons. Be wealthy and fond of learning, wealthy and fond of propriety, wealthy and fond of goodness. This "wealth" is the material foundation; what we are fond of is spiritual wealth. I would like to invite Venerable Daoyuan, who is with us, to share as well.

Venerable Daoyuan: Thank you, Mr. Yang, and thank you all for giving me a chance to speak. Let me share from the perspective of happiness. Before I became a monastic, I had a very good job with a very good income. I was content and felt very happy. After I followed my teacher, Elder Monk Huitong, into monastic life and practiced in a thatched hermitage, the old master would not let us use mobile phones, and even electricity was not allowed. I was equally happy.

Later, when the old master, at the age of eighty-three, made a vow to restore the Chan ancestral temple Yangqi Putong Monastery, he came to speak with me and asked me to take full responsibility. I told the old master: if I had wanted to become an abbot, I would not have come to you to seek ordination in the first place. The old master said: you must arouse the aspiration. When you help establish a place of practice and look after everyone in their cultivation, you will discover that you are actually very happy as well. So I went to Yangqi Putong Monastery to oversee the temple's construction. Now, over forty monks practice there, and I feel very happy.

This is probably the movement from a happiness centered on oneself to a happiness of benefiting others. There is a saying in Buddhism: "The lamp of Yangqi shines bright for a thousand ages." And speaking of this, I must express my gratitude to Mr. Yang Zhao. In the course of my interactions with Mr. Yang Zhao, the monastery established the "Heart Lamp Assistance Plan." Mr. Yang Zhao said: let us first light the lamp in our own hearts, and then go help those in need. Now, in Pingxiang City where the monastery is located, as long as orphans meet the criteria, Mr. Yang Zhao provides the funding and the monastery takes the lead in giving them support --- close to a thousand people have already been helped. In the process of assisting these children and elderly people, they say, "Thank you, Venerable. For decades, no one has helped us like this." So, in the process of helping them, I am also very happy. But the happiness of benefiting others must be built on a material foundation. Without Mr. Yang's support, I would have no way to help others.

Yang Jinlin: Here today, benefactors are gathered in one room, and we have moved into yet another topic. Charitable organizations of every kind now abound, and successful entrepreneurs are paying more and more attention to charity. Mr. Cao Dewang, Mr. Yang Zhao, and Mr. Li Jinyou seated here have for decades given wealth, given the Dharma, and practiced what they teach --- we are deeply grateful. From a certain angle, one could say that engaging in charity has become a powerful trend. But sometimes, doing charity also brings us affliction. Many people do good deeds, only to attract all kinds of slander and criticism. They end up conflicted and unhappy. Why does this happen? Venerable Jiqun, is it because our motivation is impure, or is it that society as a whole misunderstands what charity is about?

Venerable Jiqun: On the subject of charity, these great lay practitioners all have abundant experience. In a time when the gap between rich and poor grows ever wider, charity can to some extent ease the tensions between them, and it is critically important for the healthy development of society. Yet it is true that many people find charity a source of inner conflict. Why is this so?

I once gave a talk at the "Making Love More Powerful" charity forum held at Fudan University, where the audience consisted of charity workers and compassionate individuals from all over. The forum was convened precisely because so many people had encountered various difficulties in their charitable work. This, too, prompted me to reflect on the phenomenon.

I believe there are two main questions involved. First, what is charity? For example, can an act of pure donation be called charity? Behind any donation there can be all kinds of circumstances: it may come from love, it may come from the pressure of public opinion, or it may have other motivations. If we equate donation with charity and ignore the motivation behind it, there is actually a problem. For the very premise of charity must be love and compassion. Only actions grounded in love and compassion can be called charity. In this sense, charity can also be called "the morality of compassion."

We can see that both Buddhism and Christianity have a tradition of charity and are dedicated to public welfare. What guides these actions is the compassion championed by Buddhism and the universal love proclaimed by Christianity. Only when such thinking is the foundation can genuine charitable action be realized. If we remove compassion and remove universal love, we may then bring worldly calculations or expectations into the act of helping others. And once those expectations are not met, you will, in truth, be quite afflicted and miserable.

This takes us to another question: what is the core value of charity? Sometimes we may think that through charity we can bring ourselves peace and smooth sailing, and gain society's respect and recognition. Of course, such thoughts are reasonable, but they are not the core value of charity.

The core value of charity is, first of all, the inner growth of compassion and the elevation of one's character. A person who engages in charity should become increasingly inclusive and increasingly loving. In our society today, people are often emotionally numb to one another --- there is a sense of estrangement and indifference. Even more alarming is an atmosphere of inexplicable hostility. In the course of doing charity, as our compassion grows, we can not only dissolve indifference, distance, and resentment, but also transmit compassion and dispel this hostility. This is the meaning that charity holds for the self. As for external recognition, praise, and respect --- these arrive naturally, and are merely a by-product of charity.

Yang Jinlin: Today's discussion has reached more and more of the core. Mr. Cao is an extraordinarily generous benefactor to my alma mater, Xiamen University --- that, too, is great love. And Mr. Yang Zhao and Mr. Li Jinyou, both having done so much merit, have each secured their own place within Chinese communities around the world. In this new historical period, our whole nation is realizing a cultural renaissance. The vision is beautiful, but the road lies beneath our feet --- how do we take each step?

In the course of spreading the Buddhadharma, and in the hands-on practice of each entrepreneur here, how do we define success? The same rice feeds a hundred kinds of people. When each person interprets it from a different angle, how do we arrive at a relatively objective view of wealth? How do we be a businessperson, how do we be a wealthy and noble person?

At the very least, we must preserve the dignity of an individual, a community, or a society. Without dignity, how can we give wealth, give the Dharma, give fearlessness? Without compassion, how can we have a correct view of happiness?

Speaking of charity, Mr. Cao Dewang, Mr. Yang Zhao, and Mr. Li Jinyou all engage in charity and they do so happily, without any inner conflict --- but they also account for every cent, because only then can their giving be properly directed. In each person's life journey, let us not talk about the hardest moments --- those are already past. Let us talk about the happiest moment. Is it the sharing of wealth, the sharing of happiness, the sharing of family joy, or the sharing that comes from charitable work? What is your happiest moment?

Mr. Yang Zhao, you have helped nearly a thousand orphans. All those children --- what do they call you? Papa Yang?

Yang Zhao: I have a few standards for happiness. First, contentment brings happiness. What is meant by *contentment*? It is by your own measure: you have enough to eat and wear and no worries about your family's livelihood, plus sufficient wealth to help others. For example, if you support a thousand orphans, but then you realize, oh no, I can support them this year but not next year --- that easily brings affliction. But if you have enough wealth that a thousand is fine and ten thousand is also fine, how happy is that? Therefore, the foremost thing for happiness is contentment.

Second, helping others brings happiness. When you help others, try experiencing it --- you will discover that it truly brings joy.

Third, finding joy within yourself. Don't end up making yourself miserable in the effort to bring joy to others. How can you be happy yourself? You must be able to find joy within. Savor a cup of tea --- you can be very happy. Watch a bit of television --- you can be very happy. Go shopping --- you can also be very happy.

When you can fully embody these three --- contentment bringing happiness, helping others bringing happiness, and finding joy within yourself --- then your life will be full of happiness and joy.

Yang Jinlin: Mr. Cao, it seems you have your own interpretation.

Cao Dewang: On the subject of charity, I can share a bit. How did my wealth come about? Back when I pulled a cart for a living, I picked up a straw hat by the roadside and put it on my head. After that, inexplicably, I started making money. So I have donated half of it --- closing in on seven billion yuan. In China, I have donated the most.

When it comes to charity, Chinese people are certainly wiser than Westerners, and our history of it is longer. Look at Confucian teachings and also Daoism --- they both address charity. So what makes Buddhism superior in this regard? Buddhism teaches that we must cherish compassion and that all beings are equal. As Venerable Jiqun just said, first we must cultivate our own heart of compassion and empathy. Only with compassion is there charity --- that is how it is formed. So the purpose of doing charity is very clear: to firmly cultivate our own conviction of goodness and our inner strength. This is what we are doing it for.

All beings are equal --- not only you, me, and others, but those born from eggs, those born from wombs, those born from moisture are all equal. Even the mountains and rivers are within the scope of our protection. So people in every trade and profession should not be recklessly busy --- digging a hole here, gouging a trench there. Mountains and rivers all have life; they ought to be protected. If we destroy nature and ruin our own living environment, what charity is even left to do?

So my understanding of charity is, first, humility, honesty, and abiding by the law. Whether you run a business or a factory, do not cause environmental pollution. Otherwise, how many families will be ruined and bankrupted trying to pay for medical treatment.

Cherishing compassion and the equality of all beings --- that is profoundly scientific. China has a long history of charity; not only did we start earlier, but our motivations and purposes were also very clear. So why do we now fall behind the developed nations of Europe and America? Well, when I made donations, I encountered income tax on them. So I looked into how America handles this. I found that around the end of the Second World War, maybe seventy or eighty years ago, they only just started to legislate on charity. Before that, the government opposed it, and ordinary people cursed it, saying it was all fake. Now China is also facing a transformation in charity, because the economy has developed to a certain stage and must confront a different set of issues, not simply the charity of the old Confucian model.

The preceding part concerns philosophical understanding; what comes after is that the government should use incentives to encourage wealthy people to contribute their money and participate in social regulation. There was a period in history when the rich were rounded up and their land was seized and redistributed --- and that kind of thing brings trouble.

As entrepreneurs, we must also recognize that we need to develop together with the nation. Because your fortune is not entirely the result of your own ability; rather, in the course of the nation's transformation, the broom happened to sweep your way. If it were not for this, you would still be the same you as before. We must see this relationship. Nowadays, developed countries use coercive measures to push the wealthy into charity. By coercive, I mean levying inheritance tax, income tax, and interest tax --- do you think they'll hand it over or not?

Why do we engage in charity? It is to promote and advance social stability. Therefore, we should reflect: in such a great nation, how do we seek common ground while reserving differences? I take my words very seriously, and when I criticize, I can be quite systematic about it. But when we act, we should try to understand: what exactly are these policies? Chinese people nowadays are very impatient; before they have figured things out clearly, they post articles online to show off their intellect. Then when we look at them, they are completely off the mark --- what they say is far removed from the objective facts.

Li Jinyou: I earned my first bucket of gold when I was twenty. Among Chinese Malaysians, whenever you have money, people come knocking at your door asking you to do charity, mainly to support Chinese-language education. Today, Malaysia has over 1,200 Chinese primary schools, plus secondary schools and universities that carry on Chinese culture --- this is directly linked to the charity work we did in those early days.

When I was young, I read a line in the *Caigentan*: "One who does evil yet fears being found out still has a path to goodness within the evil. One who does good yet is eager for others to know --- at the root of that good lies evil." So I have always followed this maxim in my charity work: keep a low profile. Sometimes, when we have done charitable work, people want to put your name on it. If you say, no need to leave my name, it can seem like you are putting on a show of purity, but it can also create inner conflict.

After I began studying Buddhism at forty, the first of the six pāramitās is dāna, giving. How to practice giving? The highest state in the Buddhadharma is the threefold emptiness: the giver, the receiver, and the gift are all empty and ungraspable. If you can achieve this, it allows you to be magnanimous and free of inner conflict.

I came to this forum with some expectations regarding "Shared Vows, Shared Path, Mutual Exchange, Mutual Learning." I feel that for the peaceful rise of China and the inheritance and revival of Chinese culture, leadership is critical. This is my personal view, not an attempt to flatter anyone. India was once a deeply troubled country, but then a Gandhi emerged, whom people call "Mahatma." In my mind, China's President Xi qualifies as a *xianxiong* --- a "worthy hero." Ten days ago, I attended China's Forum on Poverty Reduction and Development, and it gave me a sudden clarity: rather than talking about doing charity, we might better discuss how to genuinely help the poor and reduce poverty.

I believe that while there is indeed much inner conflict around charity in China today, we should not get caught up in it --- just choose one simple thing and do it. China still has sixty million people in absolute poverty. By the UN standard, that means living on just one and a half US dollars a day. Can we help with such poverty alleviation and reduction? Take on one family at a time. How much would it cost to help ten families? Yet this is not simply a matter of giving money. Why someone is so abjectly poor involves historical factors and larger environmental conditions. In President Xi's speech, he said: what I have devoted the most energy to as president is the work of poverty alleviation and reduction. I feel this needs everyone's shared vows and shared path. Our original teacher Shakyamuni Buddha's greatest compassionate vow was not to leave beings in suffering but to help all beings leave suffering behind and attain happiness.

The subject of charity, especially poverty alleviation and reduction, must be led by the government and then jointly supported by us entrepreneurs and cultural and educational organizations. Moreover, the power of religion is also immense. But we must all be clear: even in a country as wealthy as America, there is still a population in absolute poverty. This calls for us to explore through the Buddhadharma --- why is life so full of suffering?

China now has such a precious opportunity, with a "worthy hero" emerging and devoting the greatest energy to poverty alleviation and reduction. So I would like to share with everyone: reducing poverty is not just about giving money; it also requires going down there in person. We talk about mutual exchange and mutual learning. If a child from a wealthy family, pampered and spoiled at home, demanding a new phone or a new car from their father, could be brought to exchange and learn from a poor child, that child would quickly receive an education. Moreover, I believe that our coming together at this forum can gather the strength of many people, because sixty million is an enormous number.

I came to China very early, back in 1987, at a time when Malaysian citizens still could not come. I came with a deputy prime minister and had exchanges with China's deputy premier. I was very young then, just thirty. It was then that I learned that people in China had truly starved to death --- it brought me to tears just hearing it. Today many young people have already forgotten this, but it is a fact. That is why we particularly need "Shared Vows, Shared Path, Mutual Exchange, Mutual Learning," doing real work alongside the government in poverty alleviation and reduction. I am very fond of the phrase "building a community of shared life for humanity" --- it is just like what Buddhism says: "all beings are equal."

{#四观众互动解决问题}
## IV. Audience Interaction: Finding Solutions

Yang Jinlin: For the first time today, this forum has touched upon politics, and the appraisal comes from a Chinese Malaysian --- an added blessing for our forum. Now let us draw the conversation back. In the sharing of our panelists, I have noticed several shared qualities: humility, reverence, and an ordinary mind at peace.

The panelists seated here are all from Fujian or Guangdong. In the Eastern Han, someone said that "the people of Min are mostly eunuchs" --- yet today, great worthies and virtuous ones have all emerged from there. This, too, is a rare flourishing era for the Chinese nation. We must look out upon the whole world, so let us have some interaction. Let us invite our friends here today, practitioners and seekers alike, to engage together with this topic.

Audience member: Today's theme is Buddhism and Corporate Culture. My question is: how can we integrate Buddhist culture and spirit into corporate culture? Since sixty percent of our company are Buddhists, I am very concerned about this point. I would like to ask Venerable Jiqun and Mr. Cao Dewang to respond.

Venerable Jiqun: The great lay practitioners seated here are all practitioners of Dharma-inspired enterprises. In a sense, they are in a more convincing position than I am to answer this question. Just now, lay practitioner Cao articulated the convictions that guide his business --- this is, in fact, his process of practicing the Buddhadharma: bringing the Dharma's wisdom into his own heart, turning it into his own conviction, and then conducting his enterprise with that conviction. Going a step further, he enables more of his employees to embrace such conviction and such moral standards. I think the details are best addressed by the entrepreneurs themselves.

Cao Dewang: Buddhism has different levels --- there is the Human and Deva Vehicle, the Śrāvaka Vehicle, the Pratyekabuddha Vehicle, and also the Bodhisattva Vehicle. As people who run businesses, when we are still only at the stage of the Human and Deva Vehicle --- just at that level --- we must never imagine that we are bodhisattvas. If you think you are, and then you summon a group of people, what will happen? It is like when you pass by a temple and see people kneeling and bowing there --- ah, today is the Buddha's birthday. At this level only, you really can't yet speak of using the Buddhadharma's principles to run a business.

What does the Buddhadharma teach? It teaches you how to be a human being. If you truly want to become a Buddha, you must go through the six pāramitās, from dāna all the way to prajñā. Prajñā is further divided into different levels. One is prajñā with form --- wisdom that is accompanied by appearances, wisdom that can be named. To put it in the simplest modern terms, it means "understanding the movements of the heavens above and the patterns of the earth below." If you can reach that level, then being an entrepreneur is no problem, right? Don't say you are going to use the principles of the Buddhadharma to do business --- that's hard! Because you don't have that level. I myself don't have that level either. I'm almost retired and still haven't cultivated to that level.

So what should we do? We can't just repeat a few phrases we've picked up here and there, echoing what others say. On such matters, first you must accurately gauge where you stand. I once read an article about Jin Yong's character "Shi Potian." Shi Potian is a simpleton, a rough-and-ready hero with no great philosophy, but he has one trait: he trusts everyone under heaven completely, believing that everyone means him well, that no one means him harm --- though in reality, behind his back, hidden arrows and open blades are all poised to strike him. And yet this very person succeeded in the end and became the top man in the martial world.

I believe what Jin Yong wrote about is right faith. For an entrepreneur, the simplest approach is --- faith! Have faith in the dignity of the law; have faith that morality exists; have faith that your customers are the most worthy of respect, like gods; have faith that your employees are your right and left hands. Is that not right? If you try to govern things through the Buddhadharma, the Buddhist tradition advocates upholding precepts --- you must give up greed, hatred, ignorance, pride, and doubt. I think Confucianism says the same, just in different terms: benevolence, righteousness, propriety, wisdom, and trustworthiness.

So, faith is absolutely critical. For any person, if you trust no one, you are surely finished. Some worry: what if I have faith and get cheated? Actually, being cheated is your fault, not theirs. Because at the very least, you lack self-confidence, and your inner heart is not strong enough, not adequate in level --- that is why you get cheated. In international assessments of an entrepreneur's adverse record, drug use, gambling, and overdue debt all count as adverse records. And what is the very last item? Whether you have been cheated. Even being cheated counts as an adverse record --- and this, too, falls within the scope of faith.

Yang Jinlin: Being cheated is not the same as giving --- remember that. Enthusiastic questions are excellent. Go ahead and ask a question, no need to present your own views.

Chen Xingqiao: I am from the editorial department of *The Voice of Dharma* at the Buddhist Association of China. I have been in Buddhist circles for several decades. The commercialization of Buddhism is something that ordinary people, including devotees, deeply criticize, and we on the inside feel it acutely. Lingshan Company is, one might say, relatively well-run domestically. Although it is a commercial team, it has religious faith and cultural depth. Yet of those in China who try to imitate it, ninety percent fail badly. Of course, it is acceptable for a company to operate in this way, but if a monastery were run on such a model, I am afraid Buddhism would be distorted. I would like to ask Venerable Jiqun to speak about the commercialization of Buddhism: how can we promote the healthy development of Buddhist culture while at the same time preventing commercial interests from damaging Buddhism's sacred resources? Nowadays, many famous mountains and great temples in China have been taken hostage by commercial conglomerates. Lay practitioner Yang has done a great deal in Buddhist circles and should understand this well. I would also like to invite you to share your thoughts on this issue.

Venerable Jiqun: First, we must be clear that this is not the same topic as "Buddhism and Corporate Culture," which is our theme today. That said, commercialization is indeed a major issue that Buddhism faces at present. Even the recent controversy surrounding Shaolin Temple is connected to this kind of commercialization.

The Buddhadharma is the great wisdom of life. It is of the utmost importance for the spiritual development of the Chinese people, including the shaping of their worldview, outlook on life, and values. Yet today, the negative impact brought about by all kinds of controversies is continually devaluing this brand. The cost is not only a loss to Buddhism, but a loss to the whole of society.

If the people lack such wisdom as a source for their spiritual development, then where is the way forward for human life? Where is the way forward for society? Where is the way forward for the nation? I believe that this very wisdom is the key to the rejuvenation of the Chinese nation and to realizing the Chinese Dream.

As for Buddhism itself, it must return to the root and clarify its source, going back to its fundamental function, which is spiritual cultivation and propagating the Dharma. The reason there are so many problems in the Buddhist world is precisely that cultivation has declined and the function of teaching and spreading the Dharma is insufficient. On the one hand, there are reasons within the Buddhist community itself; on the other hand, the broader social environment exerts its influence. Therefore, the Buddhist community should take strengthening its own inner construction as the foundation. At the same time, I hope that society can fully recognize the significance of the wisdom of the Buddhadharma and, on that basis, provide positive and constructive support. At the very least, people should not recklessly debate right and wrong without understanding the true situation, or even worse, create severe verbal karma. Only in this way can the healthy development of Buddhism be safeguarded.

Yang Jinlin: Venerable Jiqun has spoken with great tact and subtlety, but to be honest, everyone here can also understand what he means. This is something that all monastics and lay practitioners must face. Since Buddhism was transmitted eastward to this ancient land of ours, it has passed through rise and fall time and again. We all bear a responsibility to face this.

Yang Zhao: On this issue, first of all, every monastery I have supported has come out ahead, because I ask for nothing in return. Whether helping a business or helping a monastery, I have never expected a single yuan back from what I have given. Because my heart is one that asks for nothing, the question of loss simply does not arise.

Second, I do not give to just anyone who comes. I must be certain that the monastery has the right conditions. So people sometimes ask: why do you give your full support one moment and seem completely indifferent the next? It is genuinely like that with me.

My criteria are: first, are there people who have aroused the right aspiration? My own aspiration is to serve society. If you step forward to take responsibility, you must also truly aspire to serve society. Second, do they have wisdom? If there is aspiration but no wisdom, it still won't work. Third, do the conditions exist? Someone may have great aspiration and great wisdom, but without the blessings of good fortune, others will simply not buy in. Fourth, I look at the place --- mainly whether there is a suitable venue. If the four conditions of Dharma, resources, companions, and place are all present, I will include it in my annual support plan and give it my full backing. When we work on it together, it will surely succeed. This is how I approach the relationship between business and Buddhism.

Yang Jinlin: That is truly transcendent --- because he asks for nothing. Very rare. Do we have any more questions from the audience?

Audience member: Today's forum is graced by a great assembly of worthies, which is truly auspicious. As a co-organizer, we feel deeply honored. I would like to ask Mr. Li from Malaysia about something. This forum has touched on the question of practical implementation --- that is, how to concretely combine the forum's theme of "Shared Vows, Shared Path" with "The Great Way, The Great Merchant" and issue a call to reduce poverty, especially absolute poverty, in China. This is profoundly valuable. At the same time, it occurs to me that families in absolute poverty must also face the problem of losing access to education, which is connected to cultural transmission, the spread of the Buddhadharma, and the nurturing of the next generation and the one after that. Mr. Li, could you share any concrete, actionable ideas you might have for the call you have just issued? If shared here, I am sure more people will respond.

Yang Jinlin: Brother Jinyou, I think you can make it concrete. Tencent's charitable foundation has a great deal of money; if you make a good proposal, they might well join in.

Li Jinyou: When we do good deeds, we must have the people, the resources, and the materials. In some matters, crisis is also opportunity. When I met with Venerable Jiqun yesterday, I mentioned that in commerce, especially over these past twenty to thirty years, China has been learning from the West --- and that is understandable. But I feel we need something of our own. Westerners speak of "economy," which amounts to doing business. Yet in Chinese culture, the term *jingji* --- "economy" --- is something I have sometimes prefixed with *yi* and suffixed with *zhi*, making the phrase "For the nation to prosper and the people to be at peace, *yi jing ji zhi*." Which *jing*? The Buddhist scriptures --- *fojing*.

For instance, as we have discussed, so many problems come from the human heart gone wrong, and so Buddhism has the *Heart Sutra*. *Jing* also means a path or a road --- just as a vehicle has its road, *jing* is the road of our life. And what about *ji*? The Venerable's name is Jiqun --- "Benefiting the Multitude." When we have learned and, through this *jing*, resolved many of our own problems, the next step is to *ji* --- to go forth and benefit the multitudes.

I feel that in society, the three domains of hospitals, schools, and places of practice --- although they can generate profit --- require that we remember righteousness at the sight of profit and never forget righteousness for the sake of profit. What is this righteousness? It is using the profit you generate to relieve the suffering of the poor and the masses. The West has good systems, with legal regulations: schools may charge fees but may not operate for profit. If there is a surplus from fees, it can be used to raise the quality of teachers and improve school facilities, but no individual may ever profit from it personally. These are things I think we can learn from the West.

Now we want to reduce poverty. In China, I feel that money is not the problem; the problem lies in the heart and the method. There is a very dangerous habit in China today. Every time friends invite me to dinner, when people leave, eighty percent of the food is still uneaten. In Malaysia, there are also many wealthy people, but this is unacceptable in our tradition. Yet all across China, this phenomenon is everywhere. How can we change or adjust this situation? For example, when we dine, for every three thousand yuan you spend, an automatic donation of thirty yuan could help someone in poverty.

I am sixty years old now and I want to find a group of like-minded friends. We train young people, help them start a business. Once they start that business, they must repay the principal. Then we use that same principal to help a second young person. Beyond that, the company must also give me twenty percent of its profits, and I will use that twenty percent to keep the cycle turning. This is what I personally wish to do, in response to your question.

Yang Jinlin: Poverty alleviation is a worldwide problem; poverty reduction is also a worldwide problem. This is another topic for reflection after our forum. Do we have any more questions from the audience?

Audience member: Gratitude to all the teachers and great worthies. My main question is for Venerable Jiqun. From what I have observed, in China today, many lay Buddhist practitioners' understanding of Buddhism is still at the stage of superstition. It might not even be an overstatement to call it misguided faith. Correct knowledge and correct faith are in the extreme minority. I have been reflecting on this and arrived at a rough conclusion. Human beings have three views --- worldview, outlook on life, and values. Many Chinese people's three views are in disarray, and so their faith is also in disarray. For instance, they may not even acknowledge the existence of rebirth and karmic cause and effect, yet they still study Buddhism. This is self-contradictory. Venerable, could you offer guidance on how to steer such lay practitioners toward the path of correct faith?

Venerable Jiqun: As society develops, people are paying ever more attention to questions of the spirit and the mind, and the number of those who feel a need for the Buddhadharma is growing day by day. At present, the Buddhist community as a whole still falls short in terms of teaching and spreading the Dharma. On the other hand, the Buddhadharma is vast and profound, and it is indeed very difficult to study. Without proper guidance, most people will simply be at a loss as to where to start. This is why I, too, have been exploring how to help people study the Buddhadharma effectively.

First, there must be a graded, step-by-step path. Just as in our secular education, we progress from elementary school to middle school to university, going deeper stage by stage. Chinese Chan Buddhism emphasizes sudden awakening --- "pointing directly at the mind, seeing one's nature and becoming a Buddha." But unless you are a person of supreme faculties and sharp wisdom, most people need to progress step by step.

Beyond this, there must also be a method. There are two common problems in Buddhist study today. One is a bias toward theory: people study a great many principles but cannot put them into practice. The other is blind practice: although people chant sutras and recite mantras every day, they have no insight as a guide and do not know how to apply the mind. They merely go through the motions mechanically, staying at the surface. This touches on the integration of knowing and doing. How to transform the wisdom of the Buddhadharma into our own understanding, and through that understanding establish our outlook on life, worldview, and values, and then use these views to cultivate, to guide our daily life, and to engage with people and situations --- all this requires a concrete series of practical methods.

I have now developed a "Three-Stage Practice" program. Everyone is welcome to learn more about it through our website. By following this program step by step, progressing one step at a time, the graded stages will be relatively clear. If you have a goal, a direction, a method, and a supportive environment, studying the Buddhadharma becomes much easier.

Yang Jinlin: Given the time, we will take one last question.

Audience member: I am truly grateful for this "Great Way, Great Merchant" forum. Today's theme is wonderful. I have two questions. First, what is the Great Way, and can the Way be said to be great or small? Second, I would like to ask Mr. Cao Dewang: from his perspective, what defines a Great Merchant, and can merchants be spoken of as great or small?

Cao Dewang: The Way has no great or small. Confucius asked Laozi, "What is the Way?" Laozi replied: the Way existed before the earth was formed. Whether it is called the Great Way or the Small Way, it is something formless, something that pervades everywhere. Merchants, too, cannot be divided into great and small, but businesses can be. I myself started from a small enterprise; right now, you are far more impressive than I was at your age.

The Chinese have a fondness for rhyming in writing, which is why we have phrases like "the great Way, the great something-or-other." In truth, the Way cannot be differentiated by great or small. The Way is something supremely sacred, inviolable, and no one can overturn it.

Venerable Jiqun: To add a line to what lay practitioner Cao has said: the Way has no great or small, but because in this world there are many small paths --- including what we call "small-path gossip" --- it is provisionally named "the Great Way."

Yang Jinlin: Today we have discussed the "Great Way" and the spread of the Buddhadharma under that Great Way. We have also touched upon each entrepreneur's views on success, wealth, profit, charity, and happiness. Though this is only a beginning, simply being able to make a beginning is, I feel, something quite remarkable. As our forum draws toward its close, may I ask each speaker to summarize today's remarks in a single sentence.

Yang Zhao: As an entrepreneur, where is the road? The road is beneath your feet.

Li Jinyou: Be a simple businessperson.

Cao Dewang: The true meaning of life is "faith, vow, practice."

Venerable Jiqun: I hope that by inheriting our traditional culture --- including Buddhist culture and Confucian culture --- we can arrive at a new understanding and a new positioning on the questions of life: success, happiness, profit, charity, and so on, and thereby offer a kind of wise guidance for the future development of Chinese society.

(Transcribed from the live recording)